Jake Aaron Villarreal: Welcome to our podcast, Born in Silicon Valley, where we interview startup founders exploring their journeys, their success, challenges, and lessons learned. We hope you be excited in discovering what it takes to build a thriving startup. I'm your host, Jake Villarreal, and here with us today we have Piero Nunez-Del Risco, co-founder and CEO of Pana. Piero, welcome to the show.
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Thank you for having me, Jake.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Great. Well, thanks for joining. And a little bit more about uh Piero, he is uh not just the co-founder and CEO of the company. They went through Y Combinator, they're a challenger bank for the cross-border economy. Uh and they are on a mission to provide accessible, affordable, and convenient financial services to millions of people who move money across borders. Before founding Pana, uh, Piero was the Head of Digital Banking at Scotiabank for the Caribbean, Central America, and Uruguay region. Uh, Piero, before we, uh, jump into your company and we're going to talk about what you're building, why you're building it. Um, where you... where are you joining us from today?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Florida. I'm actually in Florida. This is where I'm based at.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Great. Um, Florida's a great place. I love that town. I love our state and the town. Miami, South Beach, whatever you want to call it, is where I typically go. Uh, where are you from originally?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Uh, originally I'm from Dominican Republic and u- a couple of years ago we decided to move to, to the US. And that's where the thesis that we're tackling, it's not that I had, I had just had heard of it, but now I got to live through it. And you know, I had got to live in flesh and bones what it means to come into a new country, you know, uh from scratch start, get your SSN, start building credit um and, and the whole nine yards, right? So yeah, I'm originally from Dominican Republic and um yeah living in uh Florida.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: That's great. Uh the DR R uh is, is, is what it's known as for a lot of Americans that travel there. It's a great country and spent a few, few, few times traveling there as well. Um when you got to the US um you had already had experience in the fintech or financial services space uh and you went through the process. Um before we kind of walk through what inspired you and what you're building, kind of give us a little bit more background of you. What, what shaped you to become an entrepreneur? Were you somebody that, you know, had paper routes, lemonade stands, sold things to your friends? Like where's the DNA from an entrepreneur coming from?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: So I was born in a family of, of very, very you know intertwined and and immersed in the media industry, in the arts. My dad um used to um he was this huge uh TV uh TV celebrity and um he was, I don't know, an author, writer, uh uh TV producer and and host. And um I like cousins and, and other cousins and uncles. We're all, you know, some singers, some are, are in in theater and and or in movies or whatever. Down in my, in my home country, Dominican Republic. And like it was always expected that kind of like most of us would somehow continue that uh you know, that that, that trajectory of, of the media industry, right, of TV or whatever.
And somehow it was clear to me that that was not what I wanted. Um I loved business. I love making business. I love uh financial services. And I discovered that like at 15 years old or something like that. And um I remember I told my now wife, she was my girlfriend back then. I told her, "I will have my bank one day. I'm sure of that." And you know um I always knew that it was easy for me to speak out, which is, you know, very, comes in handy when you're an entrepreneur uh to articulate a vision. It was hard... It was easy for me to come up with ideas and connect the dots and you know, see the big picture. Um so I had to work on other stuff like, you know, uh the technical piece, the technical aspect, the execution and whatnot. Right? So I went ahead and started a career in banking, in insurance, and f- uh financial and investments. um and I even had another fintech, another startup uh which uh I can tell you we, we uh learned a lot and we had some successes as well.
But anyway, um somehow I always knew I was, I had this big mission and this big dreams of impacting millions of lives. And I was ready for it and I had the energy for it and I had the drive for it. And something, you know, made a lot of sense when it came to building something that had a, a lot of, a huge impact on millions of lives. And it was about "How do I get there? How do I get prepared? How do I train myself phys-, mentally, emotionally, technically? How do I get that?" And that's a career I kind of like uh kicked off or or kickstarted back when I was a teenager.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Wow. Starting in the teenage years. I I don't remember thinking about business as a teenager. It was about, you know, playing sports and going to parties and eventually we'll go to college and then you'll figure out when you get out of college what you want to do. But to really start at a younger age and having clarity about what you want to do, it's really a good head start and an edge. Um, you know, you came from the Dominican Republic, you're in the US today. Um, if the numbers are accurate, there's 62 million of us Latinos in the US. Um what's, what's the main problem you're trying to solve um for Latinos or internationals in the US, and what's the, what's the experience that people go through when they come here that are not from here when it comes to financial services and institutions?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Yeah. So from the moment you come into the country up until when you've been living here for many years there are many pain points across, across the board. I mean first of all what happened to me, I came to the US, first, be- getting your SSN takes a couple of months. In my case, while I didn't have an SSN, I I needed a bank account, I needed to rent a, to buy a car, I needed to rent a house, I needed to get a phone line um and many other services. And it is so hard and it's 2024. You still can't believe that you go to a bank and it's so hard to get a bank account, let, let alone do it online. And you know even when you have been here for a while you kind of like, you stay you know kind of like out of the system. And it's very hard to build the credit and even if you have an SSN and you do things right it's very hard to build the credit. You're still credit thin even when it's a year into your, your residency or whichever. So there have been many, many you know little small details that a lot of people don't see, but definitely uh we as immigrants um are living that right. And, and anyway, we saw that banking was not built by Latinos um and definitely that you know, had an impact on the state of products and services right now.
So we had done this before in LatAm um as a team uh in our personal experiences. And we said we definitely have an edge on the way we are seeing this and what we can do about it. First of all start, starting with opening a bank account. Then how can you take that same 10x better experience in opening a bank account to sending money abroad? Then maybe in the future we just like we became that first bank account, we can become the first credit card, the first mortgage, the first auto loan, and why not a cross-border product right? So uh yeah that's how it started.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: When you talk about SSN, we're talking about Social Security number that you need that to apply to get a bank account. For immigrants that come in that don't have that and they decide to use your, your challenger bank or neobank, your online bank, which you're creating, which you've created, what do they need to have?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: They can, they can use your, their passport. They can use their national ID, their government-issued uh national ID from their home country. And with that, they can open a bank account. This is something I I couldn't do when I came to the US a year and a half ago. I I searched online. I went to a couple of branches and they they wouldn't open a bank account for me um because I didn't have a proof of residency or whichever. Um I had just moved to the country. I I didn't have a proof of residency. So online it was impossible. So you could only do it at a branch. And when I got to a branch of a, of a big bank branch, it was a horrible experience. I felt they, they didn't care for my business. There was, I was like, "Yeah, you can sit there if you want, whatever." And then they gave me an ATM card, which is not even even a debit card. And I'm like, "How am I supposed to buy with this?" So, honestly, and I I never got a hold of that officer ever again. I wrote like a million emails. "How can I make a wire transfer? How can I..." No one answered. And I said, "Definitely, this is something we can fix. This is something you can improve 10x."
And by the way, US Hispanics, 62 million. We are a $3.4 trillion GDP. We would be one of the fifth largest economies from a GDP perspective in the world if we were a country. And it's, you know, Hispanics will be 110 million in 2030, right? So um I'm sorry, in '60. So it is important that we understand the growth of this community and that we serve it right.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. You know, before this episode, uh because as a Latino myself, born and raised in the US, uh in fact, I just went on a ski trip to Whistler in Vancouver, north of Vancouver, Canada, and my passport had expired. And so I had to go into San Francisco and go into an office and apply to get an expedited renewed passport because I was leaving in 10 days. And that's impossible to get a passport, but they do have expedite services. And I was being questioned as if I wasn't even an American, like as if I'd never lived here. And I'm like, "Dude, I was born and raised here. I got..." they wanted my birth certificate from when I was, you know, born. And anyway, long story short, I understand policies and procedures. Got through it. It was u- you know, an eye-opening experience.
But, you know, if you look at the market, 62 million Latinos, you know, 9.3%, this is from ChatGPT right before I jumped on here. Uh households uh uh are unbanked, meaning that they don't have a checking account or savings account. Uh 24% of Latinos are underbanked, uh indicating they don't have um, they don't always use traditional banking services. They might use um check cashiers, payday lenders, um different alternative options. So if you come here and you say make money and you have families back in your country, what's the typical process? How do you get money out of the country back to them if you don't have a bank account?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: So, that's a great question and, and obviously one that where we're, we're highly focused. We instead of trying to bank the underbanked, you know, the way we see this is that for every US Hispanic, you know, there are two to three family members outside the US to whom they're connected to, and that economy is completely overseen. I mean, and that is completely underserved. That's 83% underserved. 62 million Hispanics send about 20% of their paycheck to their families back home. And that has changed a lot. That's not just a help they send back home. Now they have investments back home. Now they have a car loan back home or a home loan back home. They pay it as, as a, as an investment. And this flow of money is still 83% in cash. And you, the question is why?
So when you look at the typical paycheck for one of our target customers today, that small business is going to pay them in cash or a physical paycheck for many reasons. Many times this person ends up cashing that check at a check cashier uh across the street for 1.75%. And then they, they have to go at Western Union or MoneyGram or whichever legacy players and send a remittance for 6%. And that's going to get there in a couple of hours or maybe next day. Um what... how we improve that experience is that this person might be getting a physical paycheck because they couldn't get a bank account. So they need to get paid in cash. So now that they can actually get a bank account with Pana, they can get a direct deposit which is even easier for the small business. So once you get a direct deposit, what do you do? You, you don't have to go to a cash-only kiosk to send a remittance. You send a remittance, a remittance within the app and it's going to get there in a couple of minutes or seconds or a couple of hours. So way easier. It's way faster, way cheaper, and much better experience. So, this is one of the things that we are having most of the success on in tackling the cash economy.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: How big is that cash economy? You threw out some percentages and some numbers. When we talk about real dollars, how much money is going across the border on a yearly basis?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: $150 billion a year. And 80, 83% of that is still cash. Meaning I go to a cash kiosk in the US and someone in LA goes to a cash kiosk and picks it up.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: And with your platform do, is it a mobile app? Is it something that both parties need to have?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: It's all sort of a vertically... both parties could have it, but not necessarily. I mean, a person in the US can simply download the app um open a bank account 10 times easier than what it would take in a a typical uh bank or, or community um or community bank and you know just load money to it. You can go to a retailer and deposit cash to it, that you can get your direct deposit in it. You can use many ways of depositing cash. So once the money is there, you can spend it with your debit card, send it abroad. Um, as easy as it should be.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: When you look at the market, um, it's a lot of people out there to to target. What's worked for you in terms of getting your brand in front of customers or potential prospects? Um, uh, what from a strategic perspective and a marketing perspective do, are you getting traction in?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: So I think it was all about going to the problem and understanding who has the problem. So ironically most of the people who end up opening the bank account are not the ones who are seeking for your product and they're, they're not that aware sometimes that they actually need the product. Most of them are. But who does it really hurt to? And that's where we discovered that, you know, small businesses, Hispanic-owned small businesses, when they need to pay in cash, it hurts. You know, it's uncomfortable, it's cumbersome, it's expensive, and it's informal to pay in cash because your employee does not have a bank account. So we figured out that, you know, helping employees uh open bank account, it was not just something good for the employee. So they're now banked. Now they can save tons of cash. Now they can, you know, start getting, you know, building a a a history and building and getting more formalized. But the employer is also happier, you know. And you know, we've talked to small business owners that they even got mugged because people now know that he, he needs to handle cash every Thursday to make payroll because half of his payroll is in cash. So, we're h- helping these folks move and migrate from the cash economy to a digital one.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: God, that's great. You don't think about getting mugged when you're doing business, but if you're a cash-heavy company and people know about that, yeah, the danger is there. So, I understand that. Um, you went through Y Combinator, and when you went through Y Combinator, were you, did you move from the DR to go to Y Combinator? Were you already here? How did you hear about Y Combinator?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: No. No. First of all, what Y, what YC is like the holy grail of of I don't know, my generation the you know a couple of you know folks you know maybe a bit older than me but also younger than me. Um, if you're in the startup world, you obviously know what YC is. And um, if you probably like me have applied a couple of times and got rejected. And, and me and my co-founder Luis, we, we had independently, individually had applied and got rejected before with other ideas or other projects. And this time around, uh, we kind of like even had given up on, on trying to get to YC. But when we got together and we, you know, started talking about Pana and what we, we actually could build, and it started sounding like, "No, dude, I think we have something here, man. I think, I think this, I think this is good. I think this could get into YC." So, we started thinking about it and uh yeah, we applied as soon as we started coding. We, we applied to YC and, and got in. Uh that was January '22. Uh we, we got in for the summer batch, Summer '22 batch, but um we actually applied as soon as it was uh um open and um and, and we got in.
Um, I was, I had already decided to move to the, to the US. And I had already started moving, and that experience was the trigger for Pana. When I tried to open a bank account a couple of months before and I lived in flesh and bones what it really meant to be an immigrant and just starting, just trying to get basic uh products and services. It's horrible. It's, it's uncomfortable. You feel unwanted and it shouldn't be. It doesn't matter if you speak English. If you don't, it's even worse. It doesn't matter if you don't understand the culture. It's worse if you don't. Um but it shouldn't be that way.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, makes sense. Well, congratulations on getting uh into Y Combinator and coming out of that. Um what did you expect to learn going through YC? What, what was maybe something insightful that you didn't know you would learn that has been very useful for you coming out of it?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: So when you have admired and, and or looked at YC as that holy grail as I said, um you've studied a lot. You know you know things that they put out on blogs, Paul Graham's essays and things like that. So uh in our case we, we really understood like the, the mindset of YC right, um because of our background and because where we came from and we had experienced, second time fintech founders and stuff. Sometimes I think you kind of like feel you know it all, and when you get to YC you really understand that no matter what you know, you got to unlearn what you already knew and you know kind of like learn again basic stuff of, of building a company. So it is so amazing to be surrounded not only by millions of um data points and resources of information that are really valuable, group partners that are incredibly uh have been incredibly successful, but also by a community. The community is amazing and it's so interesting to and so it's such an honor to be a part of that community and just to be able to reach out to someone and get an advice. Uh so yeah, that, that was amazing just getting to know everyone and and and hearing of every, those people think.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, we hear that time and time again. Uh that there's so much to to get from the community uh that helps you, you know, not just build relationships but also support each other along the process. You know, sometimes building a company at the top can be lonely. You know, there's no one really there all the time to guide you. But to have a, an ear that can listen to your problem and maybe vice versa, it's always a beneficial um mental health, you know, free collaboration solution, which is uh is pretty pretty amazing. Um as you look into 2024, what are you excited about about Pana?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: I'm really excited that, so up until this point, you know, we have been laying out the groundwork. We've been building a company, building a team, um building a product. And there's a huge, um there's a, there's a very important phase where you optimize and get to that product-market fit that so many people talk about. Um so we launched in, you know, as part of YC's demo day, um in what, in Q3, Q4 2020 um '3, sorry '2, 2022. And you know from that point on you, you just start building, you ship out your product, you got to learn from that usage, you got to talk to your customers, you got to understand all that, and then you got to go back and iterate on that feedback and then launch again and then continue to ship based on that uh, on those feedback. And and you know and those iterations definitely are what you know, create, it's what creates that value.
Um I am so proud of the team that we've built and the you know the team that I'm, I'm, I'm, it's an honor to be a part of. Um and now we are so excited to have laid out that groundwork, prepared ourselves for the you know for, for that growth. Like we've been you know trying to, working very hard to reach that product-market fit. We now have got that product-market fit. So 20-, 2024 is so exciting because the path is clear. The road ahead is, it's going to be tough, uh but we have the uh necessary necessary energy to take on that. And um it's, it's about just show, showing them what we've got. So that's what I'm excited about in 2024, just growing and making sure uh we keep building Pana um and we keep you know building on that foundation that we've built, we've been building so far.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Really cool. Is the product out there? Like if people wanted to find it, where would they go? Where would they find you?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Yeah, so um you can go to getpana.app or you can do holapana.com, whichever works best. Um you can go to the um any of the app stores and, and Apple or, or Google and, and download the app. Um it's very easy to use. Um really it's the product I wanted and I needed uh in 2022 and I didn't have. So I'm really happy to you know be part of this journey where we've been able to build something that I personally use and I personally needed, I personally value just like the rest of our team um with, who's gone through the same type of experiences.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. You know, just so the listeners know, Pana is P A N A and uh is that correct?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Sorry, I I'm not sure why I can't hear you. Can you hear me now?
Jake Aaron Villarreal: I can hear you now. Jesus. Okay, cool. So, just for the listeners, it's P A N A, correct?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: No, P A N A or is it P A? Okay, so for the listeners out there, uh if you're looking for the app, it's P A N A. Um and getpana.com.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Um you know as you as you look at the team that's helped you build this uh you know you have to get it right especially in those first hires. Uh how big are you today and what, what's worked for you and in filtering out the bad and filtering in the good employees?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Yeah, so we're 14 right now. Right now we are at team of 14. Sorry. Um let me hold on. I don't know why. Is there a slight delay or something?
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Yeah. I I I think it's uh kind of like fixed now. Um yeah, it'll all flush out so no big deal. Can you hear me?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Yep, I can hear you. Great. Yeah, may, maybe it's on my side. Um anyway, sorry for that. Um, as I was saying, uh, we're, we're a team of, uh, we're a team of 14 right now. Um, I think that it's, it's been very, um, you know, very important from the beginning. First of all, the relationship between me and my co-founder, uh, Luis is, you know, probably one of the best decisions I've ever made in terms of, uh, partnering with someone. Uh he's my co-founder, amazing human being. Um and you know someone with whom uh we are, you can, we can agree and we can disagree and you know um and it really works and, and honestly I think that is reflected on, on the team and everyone sees that right and they're inspired by that.
Uh second, I think you know sometimes we interview people for whom we don't have a role yet. "What do you mean?" So sometimes we meet people that they, they really look like you know, you can sense that they're very talented right, uh and sometimes we don't even have a role for that person as I was saying. But it's very, very important to focus first on the, on the person and on the talent before the role. Because I think that's going to you know, that's going to play a, a, a, a huge role in, in, in their trajectory in the company. So anyway um the, the culture and the Pana team is amazing. Uh we've been able to build a, a team that uh is really excited. It's a team of very highly productive professionals very intertwined with the mission. They have felt this uh in flesh and bones. They have been entrepreneurs themselves and/or immigrants themselves. So um anyway, yeah, very, very, very excited to, to just be a part of this team.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, that's great. As we wrap up here, we're going to switch gears, ask a couple personal questions. Um for you, what do you do to keep a positive perspective in the up and down journey of building a startup?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Oh man, that's um that's, that's a very... that, that falls very close to home. Because um as I was saying, I come from a, a family of you know artists and usually a trait that we share is that we are more emotional or more you know kind of like connected to our emotional side. Um, and when you start building a company, the emotional threshold is so hard that you got to be very sure that you're going to want to do that and you're going to be able to, you know, have the resiliency to go through that. Um, I always try to prepare myself for that. I've read books. I've trained myself. I, I've gone to, you know, to work to big corporations to train myself from an emotional perspective and other perspectives, of course, to make sure that I have the strength and the emotional resilience to go through that.
Um, I think if you, I think there's something, the superpower of an entrepreneur is that question that we ask ourselves of "how hard can it be?" And that question is really based on maybe naiveness, maybe missing a link, maybe seeing something that others don't see. And that is the ability that we have to go after that and tackle that. Um but once you try that and you jump, you're going to as you said, you're going to face a lot of challenges. So personally I think you got to know yourself. You got to understand yourself. You got to understand what are your strength[s] and your weaknesses and very consciously work on those things that you know that are, that you're not strong at so you can complement yourself or, or, or, or try to become you know more whole as an entrepreneur and try to tackle and, and go through those processes. Because they're, it's going to be very hard. It's, this is very hard and it takes an emotional toll, an economic toll. So, um, yeah, I think you got to think very well, but also prep yourself and make sure you, you've trained yourself to, to, to go through this.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, that's great. Um, you talked about you, you know, books and whatnot. Anything, any book in particular that you thought was real helpful?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: There's this book about, from Steven Pressfield, The War of Art, that I loved. And there are many books that go on that same line, but this was the, the first one that I read and that really changed a lot. And you know, it speaks a lot about how you have that self and that ego and that artist which is not just a painter. An artist could be a customer service representative that went the extra mile, or a, a plastic surgeon that, or a surgeon that did something wonderful and amazing. And that's what he calls the artist. And that artist lives in the self. So there's this journey about how do you connect with yourself, not with your ego. And you know that obviously opened up a huge world of, of discovery and trying to understand that and to work on that. And this book might not make sense to everyone, but definitely I think if you're going through the start of journey, this is, this is surely a book that'll, you know, will come in handy. It's called The Art of War, and it's a very good book. Um, yeah, there are a couple of others in that line, but I I I'd recommend that.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, that's great. I've heard about that. I've read that one, and I think that's incredible. Um, last question for you. What's some advice you've gotten from another founder that you thought was priceless that you can share with the listeners that has helped you and maybe could help them?
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Uh there are many. Um, one of the things you know that really resonated with me was one that during YC uh there was this other founder, um he had gone through startups, he had failed, he had succeeded and you know. And he always, he made a huge importance and, and point about people that you know are the, are the best at what they do. Uh but you know that not necessarily think like you do, and because we have a bias to hiring people uh into recruiting people that think like us. And just making sure that while you want to have this cultural fit, comfortable with that difference of opinion and difference of, on perspective because that person thinks differently. There's a sweet spot there and there's, there's so much building, so much building happens when you are able to you know not only uh work with people and build with people that uh think differently, but you're able to do that constructively. So I, starting the batch, uh one of them told me that and it really resonated with that, with me, and obviously carried that all the way.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: That's really cool. I love to hear that. Um you know uh Piero, I want to thank you so much for jumping on here and sharing your story and also excited to see what happens with your product and in the, in this next 12, 24 months um what that looks like. So, it'll be great to have you come back and give us an update when you get there. Um, and then also want to thank the listeners for listening. I think this is a really inspiring story, not just because, um, we both happen to be Latinos, but there's 62 million other Latinos out there that, you know, and many other immigrants and, and many other cultures that will, most likely will go through the same scenario at some point. Um, so thanks for the listeners for being here today and uh just want to again show my appreciation and gratitude for that. I'm your host Jake Aaron Villarreal signing off for now but can't wait to catch up with you all on the next episode. Until then, take care.
Piero Nunez-Del Risco: Thank you.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Before we wrap up, I want to give a big shout out to all the entrepreneurs that have joined to make this podcast possible and for all the listeners for listening. It means the world to me that you chose to spend your time with us today. I'm your host Jake Aaron Villarreal signing off for now. We can't wait to connect with you all soon on the next episode. Take care.
This show is sponsored by Match Relevant, a company that helps venture-backed startups find the best people in the market. And they do it in three simple steps. First, they sit down with founders to understand their story. Second, they tell their story into multiple candidate channels. And third, they schedule interviews within 48 hours. Find us at matchrelevant.com to learn more about how we do it.
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