Stop Wasting Time On Estimates

Jake Aaron Villarreal: I'm Jake Aaron Villarreal, the host of the Born in Silicon Valley podcast, and excited to have with us today Patrick Murphy. Patrick, welcome to the show.

Patrick Murphy: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Well, you know, uh, I'm excited to have you. Before we jump in here, where are you joining us from today?

Patrick Murphy: I'm in South Florida, and I'm in, uh, Miami.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Very cool. I love that area. You know, it's crazy. I'm on the West Coast, but you know, we had a call a couple weeks back and you know, you just never know who you're going to know. And like, the one person that I know that lives in Florida is, you know, Russell Weiner, the CEO and founder of Rockstar Energy Drink, and you happen to know him, which was—which is crazy. So, social truth. Hopefully, you test that out. You actually talked to him. He knows me. Anyway, he was a returning partner.

Patrick Murphy: I haven't tested it yet, but I take you at your word. I know it is a small world. The world's a small place, right? I mean, it's always at least one degree of separation.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, no doubt. Well, cool. Well, uh, before we, uh, jump in and talk about Patrick's story, let me just give you a little background of Patrick. So, uh, he grew up doing construction estimates with his grandfather, printed plans, scale, ruler, all manual. He served multiple terms in Congress. So, he's the first congressman we've had on our show. Then came back to the family business and realized nothing had changed in the industry. Um, same slow, outdated processes. So he built Togal AI, bringing speed and intelligence into preconstruction and helping teams save thousands of hours and dollars. Love the background, like your, uh, what you're building.

Give me a little background of you in terms of just first and foremost from, you know, growing up with the family business, transitioning into Congress. I mean, I just—let's talk about that a little bit first, and then we'll talk about the business side of things.

[From Construction to Politics]

Patrick Murphy: So, I grew up in the family construction business. My grandfather was a painter. I moved to Key West in the 1950s. Uh, my dad worked, you know, grew up around the trades and the military, and dad was a union carpenter. Dad went to the University of Miami freshman year, started rebuilding the Pike House that he was living in. He made like 10 grand, and he dropped out of college. He's like, "Shit, I'm rich." You know, why would I keep, you know, going to school? So he started a construction company. But I say that as background because my family grew up, you know, in and around construction. It was important that we all grew up in construction and started at the bottom.

So my first job was digging holes, pouring concrete, working on job sites, you know, then sort of worked through the business in the office and estimating, accounting, and all the various roles. And my dad was always the type, "Hey, if you want to be an astronaut, you be a doctor, you want to be in construction, follow your dream. Just be the hardest working person. And, you know, we'll do the best we can to support you in that, but be happy, right? You're going to spend a lot of time at work. Make sure what you're doing actually makes you happy and be the best at it."

Um, that transition to politics, you know, probably unique and different from the outside because no one in my family's been in public service. I don't want to sound cheesy—that's a calling—but I was just tired of bitching and complaining. And you know, one of my best friends, um, and I would always sort of, you know, spar politically and go back and forth and came to this realization that everything that's being discussed—this is back in 2010—the same things being discussed today: the debt, the economy, immigration, climate change. And it's like there's just so few voices of our generation and younger that are getting involved and throwing their hat in the ring. And it's kind of like, well, who the hell am I to complain and not at least try, right? Like what's the worst thing that happens is you lose. So what?

So it was sort of an easy decision when it was framed like that, that I'm going to run for office. Um, you know, looked at, you know, what office is that, like, you know, what are like the real places you can make a difference? And the issues that motivated me the most are really at the national level. Some of the issues I just mentioned. Nothing, you know, of course I care about the local and state issues, of course, but uh, those federal issues really sort of got me uh, fired up. Um, had a great team. We were blessed uh, to run in 2012 in a great cycle and ended up winning what was at the time the most expensive congressional race in history. It was like $30 million, right, for a two-year term. We won by like point I don't know, or .6% or something, like a couple thousand votes.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. So, you know, crazy experience just going through all that. Like not only just running for Congress, but that was the most expensive congressional race.

Patrick Murphy: We were outspent five to one by my opponent. We were able to pull through. Um, yeah, fun, fun story. I could go all day about politics, but I'm sure your audience doesn't want to hear that the whole time.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: So, you went into politics. I'm sure you learned a ton. You probably learned a lot about people and communication and moving things forward and, you know, being able to collaborate with teams. What was the transition from going in from politics into business in terms of starting your own? And is this your first startup or had you had a few before this?

[Transitioning from Politics to Business]

Patrick Murphy: So my first job outside of Coastal, outside the family construction business, was as a CPA working at Deloitte. So I did the public accounting thing. Um, and that was really through the downturn, 2007, 8, 9, 10. If you remember the BP oil spill that happened in, I want to say April 2010. There was talk about oil getting in the Loop Current of the Gulf of Mexico, coming through the Florida Keys. That's where I'm from. So I said I'll be the local guy to clean up and be prepared to protect our beach. Long story short, started an oil cleanup business. We got some oil skimmers. We built like five or six skimmers and went to work cleaning that up. I won't get too sidetracked, but that was a big part of me getting into politics. That started seeing government first and impacting our world, business, uh, in addition to Sarbanes-Oxley, which I was dealing with at Deloitte as an auditor. So those two things were sort of very motivating, getting involved in politics.

And then when I was in DC, I was the youngest member at the time. So spending a lot of time thinking about the future of work. I was, I think, 29 when I got elected. Oh, it was clear we're going through this technological revolution. But government was, and still is I think, stuck in the mud and not preparing at all for this transition that's happening right in front of all of us and getting ready for, I think, a mass change in what people are going to be doing. And I think there's a lot of benefits to that, but if not managed correctly, could be some negative outcomes, right? We all know the sort of doomsday scenarios, and I tend to be an optimist, but if not managed correctly, uh, it does worry me, you know. This is now, and this is, you know, 15 years ago, I understand sort of the magnitude of what we were even doing with AI, with crypto, and all that. And so was spending a lot of time thinking about the future of work.

Fast forward uh, to back to the family business in 2018 or so, and was thinking, you know, do I want to run for office again? Running for governor in Florida. Uh, I was actually going to run uh, with—I'm a Democrat—I was going to run with a Republican uh, colleague. We're going to do like a split ticket and kind of just prove to the world that you know what, Republicans and Democrats aren't that different in most cases, right? We're actually, most of us get along on 80% of the issues. It's the 20% that the media wants to talk about and divide us up. But anyway, too much politics.

So was looking at the family business and started going through our financials and realized that the single biggest piece of overhead we had in construction is estimating. And when you look at construction, real estate from like that 100,000 ft level, you realize that over the last 50 years, there's been a 0% increase in productivity over that timeframe. Every other industry is up 2x, 3x, 10x, you know, construction's remained flat. So it was motivating to say, gosh, what can we do in our business to change things and start to, you know, drive some, you know, more efficiencies.

And so went through again the financials, saw the biggest piece of overhead was estimating. Okay, really good place to start. Started peeling back the onion on what's driving those costs and realized that what's called the takeoff, the square foot analysis, is the single biggest time suck. 50 to 60% of our team's time is measuring quantity. So, you know, whatever the wall behind my head on a set of plans, a human is determining how much drywall there is, how much paint there is, how many light sockets are there, right? How much AC is—like all the things that go into building are being manually quantified. And we said, "Holy cow, if a human can look at that with, you know, their eyes and see those differences in a computer, you just need to train it."

Um, we set out trying to do that. Of course, I thought it'd be a one-year, you know, sort of venture and not as much money and time as it took. I ended up spending three years aggregating tens and then hundreds of thousands of plans, hiring 25 people to label those plans and built a proprietary machine vision model. And this is the first true startup in the sense of a tech startup. The environmental company was a startup, but you know, a little bit different in the speed of everything.

Um, I always tell people there's so many interesting differences between—sorry, people think there's a lot of differences between startups and politics, but actually a lot of similarities. When you're running for office, it's like starting a tech company. You don't have all the resources in the world. You don't have a huge team, and you have something you believe in. And that's what people are really motivated by, that purpose, that calling. And you start getting some support, you start getting some momentum, maybe you get some more funding along the way, and you've got a primary election or like an MVP launch and you think, you know, you're not really sure, right? And you get it out there and then you get the response from the voters or your customers, you know, and then, okay, you tweak it a little bit. You tweak that message and then boom, you go out to launch, and that's your election day, and you've done your polls, you've done your customer analysis. We don't really know, right, until you ask them for money or ask them to vote. And you know, we're blessed to have a good launch and blessed to win, but then it keeps changing, right? Right? Because now the stakes are a little bit higher now. You got to raise more money. You got to hire more people, right? And so anyway, I could keep going with the similarities, but both are very fast-paced, um, and challenging, and a lot of courage is needed too for both of them.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: I mean, you have to believe in yourself first and foremost. You have to have a good idea and a vision. You have to make sure that you can build something that people need and want. And you actually have to deliver and execute on it. And if you have investors or people that vote for you, they are kind of hoping you deliver too. So it's not just "I'm an idea I can bring to market and a product" or you know, you're running for a position in office and you're going to get in. Once you get in, you have to kind of do what you are supposed to do. So I could see the similarities. I didn't really think about it though before we had this conversation. So really, really, really cool to see that. In terms of the product and the space you're in, why do you think it's gone so long unsolved? Is it AI finally matured to a point that there was a match to look at a problem and use technology to solve it, or you know, just did no one really see it and you're kind of first to market and doing it?

[The Role of AI in Construction]

Patrick Murphy: Great question. Number one, I think most people look at construction, they say, "Oh, you kind of stack these bricks and blocks and things just kind of build themselves." Like any industry, there's a lot more complexity to it when you start to unpack it. And one of the sort of foundational issues that makes it so complicated is that everything that's built is different. Unless you're in a tract house community with, you know, two different types of homes, every building, you know, you drove by to work and look around your neighborhood or your office building, they're all different. Different soil conditions, different architect, right? Different engineers, different contractor, different subs, different materials, different building code, different architectural designs, and you know, over time, those trends continue to change.

So, it's not like manufacturing. You're building the same widget for, you know, a year in a row. It's different every time. So people are constantly relearning, and every time you redesign, everything changes. Your drywall assembly, the way the electric is installed, maybe the code changed, the fire sprinkler locations and exits and all sorts of things are constantly evolving. So you end up in an environment—people always talk about change orders, right? Because it's very hard to capture all these changes and this nuance in 2D. It's where the world of construction has lived, in this 2D environment on rolled up plans, until COVID. You know, there were still 25% of the market using rolled up plans. COVID sort of forced more people, so it's a more digital now, but there's still a lot of very antiquated workflows.

Because another sort of—I say issue, but component complexity of this is that architects are artists, right? And that's who's starting this. You have an owner with an idea, tells an architect who is an artist, "Here's my vision, go bring it to reality." And there's no like standardized way for an architect to draw a toilet or a sink or a wall or electrical sign. And now there's some norms, but it's not like there's one way to do it. So that's another layer of complexity, that every set of plans is different because the architects are different, right?

And now another layer, you know, component of this is that the materials we use really haven't changed. And if you think about construction, there's three main ways to build: concrete, metal/steel, and wood. And that's basically it. Maybe you combine those, you know, products, but that's basically been it. There's this sort of static building material environment, architects that are artists, this 2D world we're living in, and a lot of nuance and complexity. And there hasn't been technology that's been affordable to process all that nuance and that information until AI.

And I believe—obviously very biased—but AI will transform the world, but will transform real estate arguably more than most industries because it's starting from such a low basis, right? There's been so little change that all of a sudden we're going to go to a world where I believe in 5 years from now, if you want to go build your dream home, office, whatever it might be, it's going to be a series of prompts. You're going to type in the address, the budget, style of construction, and the use case, right? Jake, maybe you want, I don't know, a five-bedroom house, six bathrooms, and a two-car garage on whatever, 101 Main Street, and Mediterranean style and, you know, here's your budget. You're going to type that in in our AI. Hopefully, we'll be giving you not just a set of plans and the design and the layouts, but we'll be giving you all the details of how to build that building. Because there's not just one way to do the drywall assembly. Right behind that drywall, you know this, you know, I'm sure your audience does. There's studs, maybe they're aluminum, maybe they're wood. Are they spaced 12 inches or 18? You know, up to the, you know, geography and where you're at and engineering, etc. The electric, the way it's run, the AC, the heat, all the components that go into construction change based on every job.

But with AI, we can now learn from 20 million plans in our database and predict probably better than you or your engineer what that drywall assembly is going to be, right? What the electrical layout's going to be, mechanical, whatever that might be, what's the best structural design. So now all of a sudden you're compressing 12 or 18 months of preconstruction design engineering into 12 or 18 seconds, and now you're just iterating and improving. And that's a dramatic change in an industry that really hasn't moved in a long time. Something I'm very excited about because we've got to bend the cost curve, uh, that just continues to go up in construction, and we've got a workforce housing crisis, and AI is going to transform that.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Well, that's amazing. I mean, if you reduce a two-week process to seconds, what do you have to get right technically to make that real?

Patrick Murphy: Accuracy is number one. Before we launched, we wanted to make sure that we were 97% accurate. So in other words, the plans that people were uploading, the output was 97%, that we got the corner of the wall right, we got the distance, the scale. 97% is what we found in our regression analysis that humans were. So we said we have to be at least as good as humans, knowing over time we're going to keep getting better and better. And now we're upwards of 98, you know, percent plus accurate. So that was number one.

Speed, you know, of course number two. Uh, a big learning was—and I think a lot of AI companies have had this—that humans still want to be in the driver's seat. That this isn't, uh, just an autopilot, right? Therefore, a co-pilot. That there is still an art, there is still a lot of, uh, wisdom, you know, between the ears that humans need to be involved in. Especially in industries like construction that, back to what I was saying, there's interpretation of what the architect really wants that is very hard for the AI to pick up today. And so reading sort of between the lines, uh, is where this human is very valuable. And we're just, we view ourselves as a power tool to help that human speed up the process and then use their brains for the harder, you know, higher value tasks that actually drive value in business.

Because you don't go to a customer, you know, Jake, if we were hired to build a house for you and I come to you, I tell you, "Hey, there's six toilets and 2,000 square feet of drywall." Like, I don't care. That's your job. Like, duh. But if I come to you and I say, "Hey, I found a way to save you 10% on your house, right? And I redesigned it. I re-engineered it and I did this and this. I found these new materials and a better subcontractor." Now, you're like, "Wow, this contractor's saving me money." It's usually the opposite.

[Challenges and Opportunities in AI Implementation]

Hell, I'm gonna hire him or her, right? I'm aligned with them. And that's what AI in our case specifically is doing, because it's allowing humans to bring value to the clients, save more money, time for everybody.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Well, we look at AI as a—just a first and foremost a function of saving time. And if it can automate anything and save you time of doing something, then you double down, invest in it or learn what it is and buy it. And so the space you're in, I love it. I know you're—you've built a good company, millions in ARR, you're profitable. What did you do early that most founders get wrong when they start a company?

Patrick Murphy: I don't know if I'm the best person to answer that. You know, lucky to have a great team first and foremost, right? None of this happens without an awesome team. We had some great investors, great clients early on that were able to give us feedback on product, uh, to help us iterate and come up with tweaks necessary for that product-market fit. Uh, I think that's a lesson that, you know, every book I've ever read, you know, starting a company is product-market fit and those customers. And I don't think that can be said and drilled into founders' heads enough. And doing that early and faster is the most important thing you can do, thinking you know everything, um, and listening.

So I think being adaptable early on. I think it's, it's a, you know, even from when we started Togal in 2019 to today, it's just such a different world and the speed, uh, that the expectation of new features of development improvements uh are. And uh, with AI, I think that's only going to continue. And I think continuing to challenge, uh, the norm, what you're building, not getting stuck in the trap of looking what worked five years ago for a business isn't maybe what people want today, and certainly not in five years from now. So continuing to kind of push those boundaries.

I think you know, maybe perhaps a component of our success is being from the industry, that we've truly, you know, from construction, right? Almost all the key players in our company—head of revenue, customer success, etc.—are from construction. Our engineers have been in estimating for decades. So I try to bring that voice constantly to our workflows, to the product itself, to the patience sometimes with our customers, that we understand the pain they're going through and how do we solve those paper cuts and make their life a little bit easier. I think it's important to have the balance of tech and what can really be done with the actual industry you're trying to solve, and find that blend and that balance.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Well, let's talk about people a little bit. I know that you're growing and scaling and hiring. What has building teams taught you about hiring that you didn't expect?

[Building a Successful Startup]

Patrick Murphy: Again, changing world. We are a remote-first company. I grew up, I guess like a lot of people, in a more traditional office setting where you're expected to be there, you know, early in the morning, work late at night. And right, wrong, and different, sometimes you judge on those hours you're putting in and just being seen. Certainly in construction, like if you're not on the job site at 5:00 a.m., you're slacking. So, [laughter] I've been brained in my head from a young child, uh, you're not working Saturday, like there's something wrong with you. You better be really sick, right?

So, it's been a different, uh, and I needed to get used to working remote and not having that control, that setting where you're in the office seeing the work. Um, but what that's done obviously is enable us to recruit from around the world, which is just such a different talent pool than you have in Miami or whatever city you know you're in. Uh, with that comes, you know, some opportunities, uh, because obviously salaries are different around the world and we've been able to, I think, hire more people and great talent, better qualified people. I mean, we just hired them outback to y'all. Obviously trade-offs with that, but that's been a big sort of learning, is how do you hire remote? How do you, um, keep people motivated remote? You make sure everyone's on track. We've had some company offsites and they've probably been some of the coolest things we've done as a company, was getting, you know, 60, 80 people together that I've never met, and all of a sudden they see each other. The unlocks that we have, um, are really, are really cool to see.

Specifically on the talent side, I think it's getting tougher and tougher. I think there's more and more sort of AI swap in the world and within resumes and interviewing. I can't tell you how many candidates we have that have some sort of AI, you know, whatever. I don't understand the upside. I don't know why candidates do that. You're going to get fired in a matter of days into the job. So there's just a lot of wasted motions right now, I think in a lot of the workflow. Having a network, I think, is important. So it's a trusted person you're hiring that you've worked with before, friends worked with that you know, that goes, I think, a really long way. Pedigree, I think, you know, matters a lot. But, um, I also think in today's world there's something to be said about the, you know, young, you know, guy or girl in their early 20s that's...

[Hiring and Team Building in a Remote World]

...going to challenge everything a 35, 40-year-old engineer has been doing, uh, with these agentic workflows and vibe coding that is worth thinking about. Sometimes the big resume with all the big logos needs to be challenged. And so I think it's an especially hard time to hire in a traditional manner where just "Oh, you worked at this company, this company. Okay, you're hired. Like no-brainer." I don't know if that's the case anymore.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, we're in a really fun time where smart people from anywhere in the world with access to internet could become millionaires, billionaires, right? Could become entrepreneurs of the future. And you can learn so much on YouTube, listening to podcasts, just challenging, just getting on Claude or GPT or whatever yourself and vibe coding yourself and learning. Like these tools have become so easy, the barriers are really broken down. And I think this really speaks to Jevons paradox where sure, there's going to be some offsets and some disruption, but I think overall, net net, there's going to be more and more people in tech because the barriers have come down soon.

Yeah, I agree with that. And you know, we're seeing some crazy stuff as well in terms of just companies as they grow and scale. You know, not caring about the logos, just, you know, "Show me what you can build over the weekend. You know, let's talk about that and how did you go about it? And, you know, what did they need to see internally for that person to succeed?" And they're really looking more at their ability to deliver in short windows versus, you know, long ramp-up times, and make sure you're the right culture fit, and then we'll kind of figure this out as we go. It's "Here's what we have to get done. Here's what we know we need. Can you do this? Yes or no?" And then put them through the process. And it's just everything's accelerated. And it's also, you know, keeping engineers, you know, mid-level, more senior-level engineers on their toes too. They have to continue to be valuable. So, it's always um, kind of a balance of getting that right.

But, you know, one thing I want to share with this, because we've just seen it, the patterns that we see—because we're, you know, I've interviewed 30,000 people and we've talked to, you know, so many startups and companies. There's really three things, two things that we really have seen work well when you hire and want to scale to get it right, is first identify and understand who you truly are as a person, as a leader, and then as a culture and the type of culture you want to build. And then understand if that person you're interviewing matches your culture. And you know, culture means a lot of things to a lot of people. It could be how you operate, the pace you operate at, the time you wake up and get in the office, you know, how you communicate, all those things. You try and interview and flesh that out and can you trust the person? Do they have a good character? Can you feel that vibe? And that's kind of like, if you can figure that part out, that match on the culture side, that's the first thing.

The second thing is, do they have the competency that you need them to have when they come in on board to do the work? And if those two things match up, you're like 90% there. The last part—and this is I'm going to steal this from Elon Musk—is you know, when he hires people, it's almost like throwing the resume out and, you know, going through the process: can they solve hard problems, but do they actually care about what they're doing? And that care part is the heart about who they are. And that's the part that, you know, can turn a culture toxic or it could make it thrive based on who they are. So those are the things that we kind of look for and when we've seen it work for companies, most of the time they scale and they are very healthy as a company. So I just want to share that with the audience and yourself because that's what we've seen over the last 10 plus years and the ones that do it right, they just—they understand the pattern and it works well for them.

Patrick Murphy: Great points. One more thing I'll add is, is we've gotten more narrow in who it is we need to hire. And I think this is quite the evolution in most companies, that you know, you need generalists in the beginning, you're doing so much. But as you scale, you have very specific roles. With that comes more specific job descriptions and specific traits that you're really trying to hire for. And it's hard to say you have a culture in the five people, right? But when you got 50 or 100 and then you start to really, that becomes so much more important, especially in a remote environment, having some form of culture and care, passion about what you're doing. So, I think you hit the nail on the head. Uh, and having those very specific JDs of what you're really solving for, um, is the best path to a successful hire.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Well, I always like to give the guests and the founders that come on the show some space to talk about what the growth looks like for you. So, if there's any, any roles, any priorities of roles you want to talk about or share, anybody that's listening out there, if you're a vibe coder or you're someone out there that knows some AI and you're—this sounds like an interesting company, talk about some of the growth areas within the company that uh, could be interesting.

Patrick Murphy: Thank you. We've been blessed to grow 3x three years in a row and quite frankly, I think we can keep growing at that pace if not faster. Uh, that the market is there. It's a huge market in construction. We haven't even touched the surface. So with that means more go-to-market. Those go-to-market engineers, those those, you know, sort of RevOps folks that are that are very technical that can help us craft the code and be very tailored on who we're going after, um, is most important right now and something that we're focused on, uh, growing that team.

Number two is, is developers, um, more and more engineers. We have a great AI team. Uh, we have a great team of folks that are, you know, sort of more traditional frontend, backend, uh, full stack engineers and we've got quite a few open, you know, resumes, job openings right now in that space. It's remote, it's high paced. I think like most companies now, majority of it is AI-forward, being, you know, most of our code is being written by AI and we're continuing to push the envelope with agents and how do we transform not only our internal operations to be more agentic, but what can we get to our customers where it's more agentic, right? And get that flywheel working because we have so much data right now. Um, tens and tens of millions of plans. We have this huge moat of labeled data, uh, that I don't know of any company has a data set like us.

And a cool piece of that, not to get too deep, Jake, is everything in construction and real estate starts with a set of plans, and we are at that foundational point. And another way to look at our company is we built an AI, you know, a foundational model for blueprints. And one component of that is doing takeoffs, right? Is doing the square foot analysis. We have a sister company called Code Comply that's using that engine for code compliance, egress and travel path and fire sprinkler locations, right, those kind of things. But carbon footprint analysis and maintenance and warranty and pricing, right, all these things come back to those sets of plans. So again, biased, but because of that foundational model we built, we have a huge opportunity in real estate as a whole to continue this standard. So, anyone that wants to be part of that journey, uh, that wants to help bend the cost for housing, help solve the 5 million, you know, home deficit that we have in our country and bring down costs, technology and AI specifically is going to be where that happens. So, welcome you with open arms.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, I love the story. I like what you're building. I know the space. I myself come from a background, family of construction. And my dad was, you know, had the hammer and was up at 4 in the morning and, you know, I was the laborer on the weekends doing the stuff around the house that he was directing me to do. So, I know that space and I love it. So, excited to see where things go. I like the integration of technology into construction and just the open world for opportunities. If anybody wants to find you or find Togal AI, where do they go?

Patrick Murphy: Yeah. Um, you know, all the social channels, LinkedIn, etc., Patrick Murphy, FL. And then uh, shoot me a note pm@togal.ai. That's a great place. We have a portal on our website, togal.ai. I'll note the name Togal AI. Togal means builder in Gaelic. So, uh, there's a meaning to our name. I happen to be Irish. Patrick Aaron Murphy. So sort of, uh, but yeah, reach out, uh, social media, LinkedIn, email.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: Very cool. Well, Patrick, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate you spending your time with us today, and for the listeners for listening. I appreciate your time as well. I'm your host Jake Aaron Villarreal signing off for now. Can't wait to catch up with you all in the next episode. Until then, trick the world. Take care.

Patrick Murphy: Thank you.

Jake Aaron Villarreal: If you like what we're doing, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, and follow us on YouTube where we go behind the scenes to learn what it takes to be a startup founder.

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