Jake Aaron Villarreal: I'm Jake Aaron Villarreal, born and raised in Silicon Valley, and here to take you behind the scenes to share what it's like to be a startup founder, the journey they're on, the problems they face, the products they build in an effort to transform industries. I'm excited to have with us today Chadd Olesen, co-founder and CEO of AVRL. Chadd, welcome to the show.
Chadd Olesen: Very nice to see you, Jake. How we doing?
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Doing pretty good. Yeah, excited to kind of talk a little bit about your company and a little bit of your origin story here. So, I guess for the listeners before we jump in, Chadd is currently building one of the fastest growing companies in Austin, Texas. In 2017, Chadd launched uh AVRL to connect disparate systems for Fortune 500 companies. By 2018, they were working with most of the Fortune 10 and had secured SAFEs from SAP, Social Capital, Fontinalis Partners, and Morpheus VP. Fast forward to today, leading logistics companies are leveraging AVRL's technology to automate and execute millions of shipments through their platform, which historically has been fragmented through the traditional transportation management systems. There's a lot going on here that we're going to jump into, Chadd. Uh before we do that, where are you calling in from today?
Chadd Olesen: From Austin, Texas. I'm in Austin, Texas right now. I travel like 90% of my time. I tried to plan today to be here.
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Chadd Olesen: Yeah.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Well, what a great place to be. I've spent some time down there, too. We're originally from California and spent a lot of time here, but so many of our clients are moving to Texas and different parts of the country for various reasons. Talk a little bit about you before we sort of jump into your, your company here. A little bit about your origin story. Where did you start out? How did you get into technology? But more importantly, just give us a little background of kind of where you grew up and were you the entrepreneurially minded kid that was, you know, had a paper route, selling lemonade. Walk us through your background a little bit.
Chadd Olesen: Super non-traditional for most founders. I wasn't that kid who grew up like selling things, etc. I grew up on a farm in rural Oregon and I started working from, you know, age of like 11 years old to the time that I like graduated from high school every summer. Worked from like 6:00 a.m. to the time the sun went down. On the West Coast, it goes down about 10:00 p.m. in like August. And I think that work ethic that I was like taught or I don't even know taught, maybe forced upon is what translated me into having a really difficult time just operating in general society. I felt like I needed to continuously work constantly and that's kind of what fed to me going out on my own. I actually tried to build a company in Portland, Oregon that was focused on natural language processing. This was in about I think 2015. I ended up meeting my CTO, who... my CTO at AVRL, through that process and he was working on uh some natural language processing technology at Cornell. We met, started working together and kind of the rest is history.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Wow. So from a technical background, did you grow up studying uh computer science? Were you a hacker? Like how did you get into technology?
Chadd Olesen: You know that I think I grew up, there's a group of people that grow up very similar to me where like we couldn't afford like video games, my parents wouldn't like buy me video games, had a computer, so you just start writing your own. And that was really the origin. My background is, is non-tech, like I'm non-technical by formal education, technical by trial and error.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Wow, what a story. That's, that's pretty crazy. It's funny, my CTO has almost the exact same story. His parents wouldn't buy him video games. They would buy him a computer. He studied math and literally just grew up building his own video games. It's kind of funny. Wow, that's great. I've got two little boys that love playing video, video games. They're six and seven and maybe we should just stop giving them the video games and they'll turn out to be entrepreneurs and build, you know, multi-million dollar companies in the future. I think it's a great path to try to, to explore.
Chadd Olesen: Yeah.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: You know, we look at companies and we look at the business sector. It's really a question of what problem are you going to solve? And when you understand what that is, can you build a valuable service or product enough that someone will pay you for it? You started off solving one problem and pivoted to a different problem to solve. Walk us through the problem you're solving today with AVRL.
Chadd Olesen: Yeah, so many people wouldn't know that this problem existed unless you worked inside of transportation and logistics. However, what ends up happening is that a lot of large shippers or retailers, so you think of like a Home Depot or a Kraft Heinz or a Mondelez, what they end up doing is they sell uh the liability to move their freight, their truckload freight across the country. So, shipping a product from, you know, Houston, Texas to Dallas, Texas. They sell that to a third-party broker. That broker turns around and sells that product or that liability to a carrier who ends up moving that transaction. However, forever human have been, humans have been literally calling one another to transact on this or emailing one another to transact on it. We're essentially moving the buying or procurement of freight into algorithmically like traded freight. And so literally having machines buy the freight, turning around and automatically selling it or what I think the industry calls it as freight matching back. That is fundamentally the problem that we're solving today. My company dreams to be the infrastructure that the freight market is transacted upon.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: How did you find that problem? And unless you're in logistics or in shipping or dealing with multi-million dollar containers, like what led you to that problem?
Chadd Olesen: That would, that is our pivot is what led us to this problem. Essentially, we were working on some really complex natural language processing models that measured sentence length, looked for conjunctions and inflections inside of unstructured data. We started working with the number one retailer in the world. That number one retailer in the world is in Arkansas. They introduced me to the largest intermodal company. So company that moves on rail. And they looked at our tech. They were like, "Look, what you're doing is fantastic. It's great, but can you solve this other challenge for us? We can't get web-based automation to work to build, to literally transact and buy freight." We looked at the problem. We were like, "Well, this is honestly easier than what we're working on. It's more scalable than what we're working on." And we literally pivoted that week and went after that specific problem. Today, what is this? It's pro- that was in about 2019, 2020. Today we automate about 25 million transactions a month. And...
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Wow.
Chadd Olesen: Yeah, it's quite, it's quite this like pivot to acceleration. And what had happened was the logistics industry and the world had never seen an event like COVID. And COVID really lifted the transportation market massively. And through that time, a lot of shippers would order product from Asia. It would come, it would sit on the Port of Long Beach. I don't know if everyone remembers like that whole like saga. What would happen is a company like a Walmart or a Home Depot would say, "Hey, I'll pay a carrier more money to move my freight over the other one." And it grew this market really quickly on the secondary like spot transaction market. And we were at the forefront of building our technology and we rose with that. And at this point, we're easily the largest automation company in transportation focused on this specific problem.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Wow. When you say Long Beach, we live in Laguna Beach and I literally can look out across the ocean and we could see those shipments sitting out in the water for weeks on end, not moving, waiting to get into port. So what you're saying is companies were paying more money to like literally get their containers off a ship and get into market faster than others or what was the ability to leapfrog other containers or shipments?
Chadd Olesen: Yeah. So basically what would happen is, and it really depends on the strategy in which the shipper operates. So maybe they had... basically what happens is like once they, they get those containers off of the ship, they need to get that product through the United States or somewhere else. So let's say that you needed to move a shipment from LA to Vegas. There's only a certain amount of trucks on the road that move that route. And so they would pay brokers more money to go and find capacity and outpay. Literally, we saw some shipments that were like $30,000 just to move like, like bed linens across the United States. Like, like the bed linens weren't even worth that much, you know? It created a massive frenzy not just in like the economy, but also like transa- like transactional spot freight grew massively more than it ever had.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: So in that equation, your platform is the one that these companies can do the transactions through. Is it a matter of if I bid a little bit more, I'm gonna get a priority in my shipment getting through from point A to point B faster, or what's... kind of walk me through that.
Chadd Olesen: So essentially think of the shipper serving of the ability to move freight from Phoenix to Chicago. They actually want to create a marketplace that is reverse of eBay. So not bidding up but reversing it down. The brokers are being competitive on where they can arbitrage. So where you might be able to move freight for $1,800, I might be able to move it because of my capacity for $1,700. I'm going to buy that and I might turn around and sell it for $1,500 and I'll take a $200 margin off of it and I'll never touch it. I'll do the transaction like that. The 3PLs need to access more freight. They use our technology to go out and look at more volume, to procure more volume, and sometimes it might be for less margin. Overall strategy is to grow volume base.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Gotcha. Why is this space important to you?
Chadd Olesen: I think that for me personally transportation logistics is massively underserved from a technology perspective. What you have in this industry is that, you know, someone had a trucking company or brokerage, they saw a problem and they would go and create technology. And because of how niche the industry has been, there's not a lot of great technology there. What my team aims to do is to bring best-in-class technology that Fortune 50 companies would use and use it inside of transportation and logistics. What transportation and logistics often does is they dumb technology down to meet the industry, not educate the industry up to meet the level of like where technology should be and how they should be leveraging it. We've taken this like personal approach where we want to teach these people how to understand their data, why it's important to understand data, how to run like, like queries. Some of these people don't know what a data store is, what an API to a data store is. They don't even know what Power BI is. We need to come in and not just deploy technology, but make sure we're giving them all the tools to be able to use it effectively.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: It makes a lot of sense to me. By succeeding in building your platform and bringing this into the market, which it's already there, who benefits the most from it?
Chadd Olesen: It's really hard. I think, you know, the, the broker or carrier would use our technology in the market. However, I think the shipper benefits the most. So, let's say I'm a broker and traditionally I only look at 4% of the volume in the market. Maybe I participate in 2% of the market. If I could look at 100% of the volume in the market and maybe I participated in the same amount, 2% of my, of what I'm reviewing, I'm actually giving way better service. So, I'm giving better rates to my shipper. I'm giving better ser-, like I'm giving uh more opportunities for my shipper to competitively like shop for prices. And I think in turn what ends up happening is the shipper benefits the most from having the most robust transportation network.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Gotcha. Yeah. When you're out there and marketing your platform, who are you selling to?
Chadd Olesen: We sell to like C-level executives that work in, for third-party logistics companies and or a carrier. We've taken approach where when we came in, we sold to the largest 3PLs and carriers and we priced our technology at like premium software as a service prices. At this point, we're working with most of the largest 3PLs and carriers and we're working our way back down. It's quite a bit different than most startups take as an approach. We felt like if we could lock the top 100 3PLs and carriers, everyone else would be forced to buy our technology.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: That makes sense to me. It sounds to me like a very engineering-heavy company. Like you have technology that you're building, you're innovating. Walk us through kind of the size of your company today. And can you break it down for us? Engineers versus sales versus operations. Like as a startup founder, you always think about I got to build a product, I got to raise capital, I got to get a market, I got to hire a team, and then you got to make sure you balance out what the team's value is to the company. What's the team value look like to you? If you look at positions across your organization.
Chadd Olesen: I think a lot of startups talk about wanting to be like product-led growth. We hired our first salesperson last year. My team is almost 120 people. Uh we are almost 100% engineering. We obviously have technical delivery managers. However, they are engineers. We have, we've basically built an engineering company. We at this point now are starting to build our sales organization as we go into mid-market and also like our ancillary positions. So analysts that came from transportation to help our customers get better at using our technology, pricing people that came from transportation to help our customers get better at pricing freight. We're trying to build almost this framework now as almost like a consult- like we're consultative like consulting with our customer on how to use our technology the best. But almost 100% of my team is engineering.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah.
Chadd Olesen: Yeah.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: You know when COVID hit there was a lot of changes to hiring and remote working and you know everything was open and on the table of how you want to build and where you want to build, cost effectively, where's the talent. What's your approach been to building your company?
Chadd Olesen: I think I, when I first started AVRL I wanted everyone to be in the United States. I tried to build AVRL in Seattle. Um we were there for about six years before we moved to Austin, Texas and we had a core team there. What had happened was we started to interview people from all over the United States. We actually found really good data science in Toronto and it was run, they run maybe 70% of the cost of a data scientist in the United States. So we started to build a hub in Toronto for data science. My CTO ended up moving to Riga, Latvia. And the reason for that is there's no establishment tax. There's no capital gains tax and we could start to build a team there under like traditional like PEO model that we could have there. And once we got product built, we were like, okay, well, we have to deploy product. We're going to need JavaScript engineers. I don't want to hire JavaScript engineers in the United States. So, we took someone from Toronto, moved them to India. They lived there for about two years while we built our India like IDC team.
When we started to look at customer-facing roles, those people are in the United States with us. And so when I look at my team, we're probably running 80% outside of the United States of America and the rest of the people that interface with customers are here. The people who work in transportation are split across the United States in the area that they went through. Yeah, it's, we're run split. I think the only thing that a lot of startups don't have to worry about is a lot of them don't operate profitably. So, they don't have to worry about state tax and county tax and city tax and le- lease taxes. And so, when we look at fragmentation as a profitable startup, I do have to worry about Chicago lease tax. I do have to worry about thresholds of hitting taxes in Pennsylvania and in Tennessee and in Alabama, etc. And I think that that's been the biggest struggle with honestly like building AVRL. I think that's been one of our biggest struggles is buying software to help us pay taxes.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, I hear you there. You know, it's interesting when Silicon Valley Bank went under and all the regional banks went down, there was a shift in mindset, not just from founders trying to get funding, but also strategy from their investors saying, "Get to profitability. Let's make sure you really have a real company and a real product that's going to scale." Some had to just give up and say "we're not going to make it" and they were out of the market. Some took a different approach and just put their head down and just got real lean and focused and they're still in that mindset of "let's just try and get to profitability." What was your sort of mindset then and has it changed and kind of where did you come out after that?
Chadd Olesen: We've been trying to build a profitable company since day one. We did a round of SAFEs in 2017 and then we were offered some uncapped SAFEs in 2018 because we were absolutely crushing it. When we looked at going and raising like a Series A and Series B and Series C, etc., we were like, "I think we can do this without raising money." And we hit profitability pretty quickly in, like, after we had taken that, those SAFEs. And for us, we were like, "Okay, I think we can do this with like having full control of the company. We can pivot if we need to. We can push out a new product if we need to." And so when COVID happened, I was actually already profitable. When we went into this like pivot, our revenue skyrocketed like literally almost overnight.
And what we did was we just tried to build like sustainable... so I talk about like sustainable growth. If you look at our website, we take 18 new customers a year. That's literally like what we take on. But when we look at large SaaS contracts, that's super solid growth, especially if we can reduce churn to, to almost like none. And so for us, we've just been focused on like how do I make sure I'm deploying my own tools internally as much as possible. So making my engineering team run as efficient as possible, making sure that I'm not overspending on like specific things like sales, marketing, etc., and how do we still like, as we grow, still operate as that scrappy startup. And I think that, that we, that's a huge focus in our culture actually.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, that's great. I'm going to ask you a question. Feel free not to answer it if you don't want to, but can you talk about the numbers when you talk about you, your profitability? Can you talk about revenue?
Chadd Olesen: I would prefer not to because my investors don't have information rights and I I would prefer not to. I think when we look at uh like our current model, we run probably 60%, 70% gross profit margin. You think of a team that is about 120 people. Like I think it's pretty easy to do the math on, on where we're at. I think if we were a traditional startup, we'd probably be Series C or Series D at this point. I think that we just decided that maybe a 100% ownership at the founder level and control would be better uh with our, with our paths, personal paths.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, that's great. I like that. You, you talked about your company and you're distributed in different uh locations, have different cost structures to them. What's the biggest challenge as you, as you sit and look at the company today?
Chadd Olesen: Change management on the customer side is like what is our number one focus as a company. When we look at transportation and logistics companies, they're almost technologically illiterate because they've never had to... a, some of them still run AS400 systems that were built on COBOL, which was created before I was born. And so like for us, we're going in and telling someone like, "Hey, you're going to, you've manually traditionally been responsible for your company's revenue." Moving forward, a machine is going to be responsible for your company's revenue and it's going to be better than you at it. Selling that to leadership is fairly easy. Selling that to the team that's going to be implementing it at the customer level is really difficult. And then also getting them to move as fast as a startup is even more difficult. Part of our role, like part of the roles of us hiring people from transportation and logistics is to come in and help our customers get better at deploying technology. And that's just because I can only be as good as the team that we're implementing with.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, that's great to see and hear. You know, innovation and marketing is essential for any company to really grow and finding your target audience. What's worked for you in terms of reaching your audience and and selling to them and and getting deals?
Chadd Olesen: We've honestly like we've mostly grown off of word of mouth. We got really lucky. I think our third customer, we increased their net new shipment count by 300%. And this is not like a small, this is a publicly traded transportation and logistics company. When you start to do something like that, all of a sudden, you start to get noticed. And we have spent zero dollars on marketing, zero dollars on advertising. We have been focused mostly on making sure that we are delivering like really good tech. So that the tech is an A+, delivery is an A+. And obviously there's things that we need to work on. I'm sure like our customer service can get better. But for us, it's literally been like, as long as we're doing a great job, we will get pulled into that industry. Especially the size and volume of, of movement that we're doing right now, we're just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. At some point, we will advertise, we will market to lock people out of the industry. But I think for right now, we've been growing mostly on word of mouth.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Uh it's the best way to do it. What do, what's the biggest risk right now, do you feel, for your company?
Chadd Olesen: The biggest risk, I think, I think that that comfortability would probably be our biggest like threat. So I think right now a lot of my team is driven by fear of failure. Not personally but as an organization like we are on path to do something that is like pretty momentous for the industry and we're the leader in it and we're doing really well. And I think that when that happens, you fear that you could mess up, but you can't go into any type of like anything like trying not to mess up. That's like the worst. That's the best way to lose. And so I think for us getting complacent, not continuing to innovate, not continuing to push like new product, not continuing to get better and focus on things that we're not getting on. So if I literally had a customer yesterday tell me we have an A+ product, A+ delivery, like we can't think that. We have to keep getting better and better and better and better. Otherwise, yeah, people could catch us or the market will shift or move away from us etc.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. What's the biggest breakthrough so far for you as a company or as a leader personally?
Chadd Olesen: I'm super direct, like maybe top 10 most direct people I've ever met in my life. And I think that 99.9% of people don't work well with people who are that direct. And so for me personally, like a big breakthrough is like you have to completely like humanize yourself in this even if you're trying to accomplish something that no one's done. And you know, building a startup, you're basically taking something that's dead, bring it to life, and making it thrive. I think that creates like unique personalities in the space. And so like the personality that I might portray online is what I feel like my company needs, but I need to work on like humanizing myself internally with my team, with my customers, etc., so that we can be more approachable. I think that sometimes really emerging technology is super intimidating for companies, for the people that are deploying it, etc. Therefore, they might not be willing to share if something's not going well. They might not want to give you the right feedback. And I think what we're working on as an organization is become like okay, yeah we can be like leading innovator, we need to be approachable as well. If we're not approachable, that is probably where failure occurs.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah, it's a really good statement. Relationships are key whether it's customer relationships or your internal employee relationships. And specifically from the leader, being able to communicate effectively in every scenario because you're going to have the good and the bad and everything in between. So I think breakthroughs in how you operate as a person within the company is as important as anything you can do with, for the organization if you really want to scale and keep your people. You know that's a retention benefit if you do it well. What do you wish someone would have told you before you started the company or pivoted that you know now that you wished you would have done?
Chadd Olesen: I said that, I like was on a podcast yesterday and I'm going to use the same exact thing because I, it's the only thing that I can really think of when I started AVRL. I didn't realize I had to build an actual company. And I think that this is something that a lot of startup founders go through. Like they think of like, "oh, I'm going to build a startup and I'm going to build tech and I'm going to work on it." You don't necessarily think like "I got to make revenue. I got to grow. I got to like produce like actual numbers." And the larger that it gets, the more real it gets. Challenges like get bigger. They're not like easier to solve. They're probably more complex and like a different type of like challenge.
The other thing that I would probably say it is like my path to going profitability was an interesting stress relief for us. We were no longer focused on cert- like staying alive or making it to the next round. We were focused on like "how do we get better? How do we do this? How do we do this?" And I think that that's a massive benefit. I have friends who've raised a ton of money and they have like, you know, the runway for another year and they're just so focused on the revenue target for that that they start to lose sight in a lot of other things. And so I just say that those are like my two takeaways that I've personally learned.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Really cool and insightful. You know, we're halfway through 2024, heading into 2025. You've talked a lot about where your company is and what you're doing. If you go to your website, you don't see much because internally you know what you're doing. You know how you're going after your market. What's on the roadmap that you can share that you're excited about?
Chadd Olesen: Yeah. I think for us like our, our biggest roadmap technologies right now is how do I fully automate everything internally? Uh we went through this challenge that I'm sure a lot of startup founders go through where we tried to bring in project coordinators to be a buffer and customer success to be a buffer into customer like relationships. And what we actually found was that when we did this, we actually gave our customers the ability to not do their work. We just ended up like doing more and more and more of their work. Uh we actually like ripped all of that down and we're automating a lot of our like customer communication back out, which is interesting from a really high value s-, like SaaS model. Like a, like a contract with us is about 250k like a single license. And so for us when we were thinking about this we were like, "ah, we got to give them best-in-class experience with people etc." And I don't necessarily know if that's what the customer cares about. I think that they care about like service uptime, making sure that it's working properly, and I think that they want like quicker results. And so for us, we actually haven't been as focused on outside R&D and product, but how do we do R&D on ourselves and like reformat how we run as an organization?
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Interesting. Wow. I I I've heard a lot of different ways to optimize a business, but when it talks about how do you, when you talk about how do you optimize your people and how you orchestrate yourself in a way that's just more efficient. Uh and then you can actually put some rules and policies around it that actually work. That's, I think that's amazing. When you look at AI in the space today and it's impacting every sector at every level, it sounds like and feels like. How is AI being used within your company?
Chadd Olesen: Yeah, I, I don't know if we're using as much AI uh as like other companies. We're using, like we do a lot of machine learning. I think that when we look at uh pricing models that exist, when we're like, and you look at like buying, selling, and capacity data, machine learning is like the forefront of what we're trying to do to make sure that we understand like outbound tender ejection volume. So when people are declining shipments, inbound tendering, rejection volume, and so leveraging other datasets to make sure that customers are buying the best that they can and teaching them those practices. And so for us, AI, yeah, we're using systems like that to like write our own scripts so that we don't have engineers do it. But I don't know if we're doing anything like super groundbreaking on the AI side of our product. Mostly how do we educate our customers to use machine learning and AI in their models to be better with our product.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Got it. Yeah. Wow. I love your story. I love what you're building. It sounds like there's a real problem to be fixed and you're on the cutting edge of doing it. Last question I have for you is most companies that build innovative technologies have to either be far, you know, far ahead of the competition so they can't be caught, or they build a moat around what they're creating so that they can defend what they're building. What's your moat?
Chadd Olesen: I think that like we're trying to build moats around technology definitely. I think I had kind of led to, a lot of people in transportation logistics, they try and dumb down tech to meet the like broker or carrier. We're trying to educate them to use our products more effectively so that we can make our products more complex. At the same time, in I think 2021 we actually went and built our own browser and we're shifting our focus from if you know like what robotic process automation is, from, away from that to full HTML manipulation. And so when you do full HTML manipulation, you can insert buttons, features into a page that don't normally exist. And so when we think of like our like future product, we're trying to think like "how could we do this?" Like if we had unlimited resources, how would we really want to build this?
Problem with that is that like C++ engineers are super expensive, right? They work for like, they literally work for like Netflix and Samsung building like those types of applications. And so for us, like just always focused on like how do we make sure that I don't, I'm not confound by the framework that I'm given. So if I have to hook into someone's like TMS or ERP system and they can't expose an API, how do I operate that website as if there was an API? And that's what we're really focused on. And I think that for us, we're trying to just build best-in-class engineering because I just, I, that's, that will continue to elevate our product.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Yeah. Yeah. God, what an incredible story. I love what you're creating. I like the fact that you're profitable and scaling and you've got a really clear focus on, you know, your target audience and be able to serve them with their, your technology. Uh, if anyone wants to find you or AVRL, where do they go?
Chadd Olesen: Super active on LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn's great. Name is Chadd Olesen. Come find me. I think contact@avrl.io is also a good resource that will definitely come to my desk through a route, but I think those are the best options.
Jake Aaron Villarreal: Very cool. Well, Chadd, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your story. And for all the listeners that are listening, thanks for spending your time with us today. It means a lot to me. I'm your host, Jake Aaron Villarreal, signing off for now, but can't wait to catch up with you all on the next episode. Until then, Chadd and the world, take care. If you like what we're doing, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review on Apple Podcast or wherever you listen, and follow us on YouTube where we go behind the scenes to learn what it takes to be a startup founder.
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